Quoting jykke:

Quote:
Since theme music composers do not currently fit in the rules definitions, do not credit them. It's that simple. It's the same as sound effects editors and other similar.

IMHO the theme music composers do fit in the rule definitions, as I consider Mike Post's 'Mystery Movie Theme', Lalo Schifrin's 'Mission: Impossible Theme' and John Barry's 'James Bond Theme' all as "songs", whether they have lyrics or not. Note that Skip's "song" definition isn't in the rules; I can't help but feeling that the rules perfecly allow my way of handling this, but noone ever bothered to think that the definition of a "song" could make things more difficult.

Once more: these people just contributed those "themes" (single pieces of music which I call "songs") to movies and/or TV shows, while not necessarily being responsible for composing the actual score for the movie and/or TV episode. Like in my original post: there is a "music by" credit in the opening credits for John Cacavas, and there is a "Mystery Movie Theme by" credit for Mike Post in the end credits. None of us want to dispute the fact that John Cacavas scored the movie, and as such deserves a "composer" credit. None of us wants to dispute the fact that Mike Post only contributed one piece of music, called the 'Mystery Movie Theme'. The same applied to numerous other movies and TV shows. The only thing is that Skip perceives a big difference in Mike Post's role in the process based on whether someone wrote some lyrics to go with his theme (see 'The Greatest American Hero') or not, as in this 'Columbo' example. I just want to be consistent, and call him a "song writer" in either case. As he did basically the same thing: he composed a 'theme'. I do that for two reasons:

(a) I consider any 'theme' a song, even it doesn't have lyrics

(b) I don't want to use the "composer" credit, as that's already used by the actual composer of the score.

I can perfectly understand why Skip doesn't agree with a) - I don't agree with that line of reasoninh, but I do understand where it. However, if you're not willing to use my method based on argument (a), then please do so for argument (b). Listing both the composer and the theme writer jointly as "composers" is a misrepresentation. It leads you to believe that the movie was scored by two people. Listing the theme writer as "song writer" at least gives us a distinction between the two.

I agree with the majority in this thread to date. A song does not neccessarily have lyrics; Mike Post should be credited as a song writer.

The most important thing in my opinion is to ensure the differentiation between composers of the score of a film and people who write short compositions (songs) for films. They are completely different - crediting them the same is against the best usability of the data... whatever one part of one  particular dictionary says.

I have to admit whereas I agree that Skip is correct that a theme is not a song, although his definition also seems to exclude instrumental songs (Song for Guy by Elton John is one that comes to mind). I believe that until we have a "theme by" credit added to the crew, using the song credit is the lesser of two evils as it more accurately portrays the person's role in the film.

Edit: forgot an all important "not"!

From the Cambridge Dictionay

Songwriter
a person who writes the music and words of songs

song  Show phonetics
noun
1 [C] a usually short piece of music with words which are sung:
to sing a song
a love/folk/pop song
See also swansong.

2 [U] the act of singing, or singing when considered generally:
He was so happy he wanted to burst/break into song (= start singing).

3 [C or U] the musical sound that a bird makes:
bird song
A thrush's song was the only sound to break the silence.

MSN Encarta

song (plural songs)


noun
Definition:

1. set of words sung: a usually relatively short musical composition consisting of words set to music and the music itself

2. art of singing: the art or practice of singing

3. instrumental work in vocal style: an instrumental work written in the style of a composition for the voice, or, in popular music, any musical work

4. zoology animal call: the sounds made by a bird, insect, whale, frog, or other animal to attract a mate or defend territory

5. literature  ( literary )
Same as  poetry

6. poem: a long poem, especially one that tells a story ( literary )
the Song of Roland


Encyclopedia Britannica

song
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

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piece of music performed by a single voice, with or without instrumental accompaniment. Works for several voices are called duets, trios, etc.; larger ensembles sing choral music. Speech and music have been combined from the earliest times; music heightens the effect of words, allowing them to be rendered with a projection and passion lacking in speech alone. Singing…

There is nothing that backs up the contention.

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:

3. instrumental work in vocal style: an instrumental work written in the style of a composition or the voice, or, in popular music, any musical work

You conveniently skipped right over this part.

To use your own argument, Skip, you are asking for nothing but trouble if you give any single field two different definitions, which is what you are trying to do.

The Composer field cannot be both the "person who wrote the movie score" and the person who wrote the "movie theme" or other instrumental piece, but not the entire score.

Using the field in this way makes the data useless, since you have no idea which "job" the person listed actually performed.

For purposes of DVDP, there is no reason that we cannot define "Song Writer" to include "movie themes" and/or "instrumentals".  This is not a legal exercise!!!! 

Hal:

Given SEVERAL possibilities, you pick the negative one. Nice ASSumption, sir, was it your intent to bring this toi the usual level of personal insult and derogatory comment. you have proven yourself to  be a total...

Skip

So a theme is a song, and the writer of the theme is a song writer?
Since John Williams wrote the Star Wars theme he is no longer a composer? Or is he both?
Beethoven wrote his 5th, is he a composer or a song writer?
Wagner wrote the Rings Cycle so he is the composer of that correct? But he is the song writer of The Ride of the Valkyries?
(Sorry if I misnamed the piece.)

Sorry, I think I agree with Skip on this one. And this is one of the few where I have 100%, and never felt strong enough to back him up.

Bobb