Quoting dav4is:

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I try to keep my postings businesslike and emotion-free. I don't feel the necessity of trying to curry favor with false sentiment. If folks are not adult enough to handle that, they should go play in their age group. People who need to hear "it would be nice if" or "I'm sorry if this has been said before" just need stroking that I'm loath to provide. I don't have time for all that.

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I'm not here to stroke their egos.
Too bad if they can't handle that.

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You are talking about "fitting in", yes?
Fitting in is for joining the new country club. This is a business forum and fitting in is not required.

The attitude expressed in this post is just an extension of the attitude of many of your other posts. That the way you see things is the way things are and everyone else is simply wrong. People here don't think of it as a business environment, we think of it as a community, and considering we were here before you who are you to tell us we're wrong?

This entire thread strikes me as an attempt to make people see things your way, which would have the effect that we'd respond to you differently than we have been. So let me ask you a question:

Why should people treat you the way you want to be treated if you can't treat people the way they want to be treated?

KM

Quoting Astrakan:

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Why should people treat you the way you want to be treated if you can't treat people the way they want to be treated?
KM

I'm not here to "treat anybody" one way or another. I'm here to try to improve the product.
I'm not here to change anyone's behavior. I'm here to try to improve the product.
If folks want to throw brickbats at me, fine. I have a thick skin. And I'm here to try to improve the product.
I may on occasion return brickbat for brickbat. But I am chiefly here to try to improve the product.

Did I mention that I'm here to try to improve the product?

Quoting Astrakan:

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Quoting dav4is:

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I looked back to the 13th and didn't really see anything from Nadja that I would call "constructive". Perhaps I missed it. Perhaps our perceptions differ.

The link was to your reply to Nadja's constructive criticism. But since that criticism was with regards to how you carry yourself in the forum, and you've in this post made it clear you don't care to try to be nice to people, I can see how you don't see that as constructive criticism.

Have I been "not nice" to anybody? Except in response to disparaging remarks directed at me? Or people trying to tell me how to behave, or fit in?

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Quoting dav4is:

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The only reason I can think of to mention the status quo is to be able to say "here's a better way." Workarounds need not be mentioned because they are not solutions to the problem, and have no bearing whatever on any proposals -- unless they (perhaps) point the way to a solution.

I wasn't talking about mentioning the workaround in your feature request. I was talking about trying to find it before making the feature request. You are interested in being able to accomplish something and not just making feature requests, aren't you? In which case workarounds are very useful. Especially since feature requests can take years to get implemented.

How do you know how much research I have put into my requests? Including workarounds.
I make use of a number of workarounds without mentioning them in my Feature Requests.
What was your point?

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Quoting dav4is:

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re effort and willingness: You have no clue how much effort I have invested in using this program. If I hadn't expended considerable effort how could I have come up with all those suggestions in a few days?

Anyone can come up with dozens of feature requests after playing around with the program for a few hours. That doesn't mean your feature requests were necessarily unwelcome. It's your communication style and lack of research beforehand that was.

KM

First off, I think that I counted 14 requests that I have posted, not dozens.
Since I have invested more than a few hours, does that mean that I'm falling behind in Requests filed per hour?
Of course, I do try to avoid filing duplicate requests, admittedly not always successfully.

If anyone can think of "dozens of feature requests" in a few hours of "playing around", the program must not be very good, eh? Is that what you are saying?

What lack of research?
That one stung.
(A chorus of "good" is heard from the Peanut Gallery!)

I'm sure nobody is waiting eagerly for my opinion...

...so here it is.

dav4is is a customer of Invelos.  Just like the rest of us.  He might not be warm and fuzzy, but he is certainly no more arrogant then many of the long term users that have been taking swipes at him.  His suggestions (While maybe not phrased as delicately as they could have been) are in general to the point and would improve the product. 

While we may feel a sense of community that doesn't mean we should pile on the new guy for bringing up things that have been brought up before.  The reason some things are brought up over and over are because they are good ideas that many people want.  And despite the lack of "delicacy" his behavior is no more outrageous or arrogant than that of many of the community that feel that they have earned their stripes. 

That sort of thing affects not only the person it is aimed at.  It affects everyone who reads the thread which is always much more than those partiipating in it. It's way too common not only in this forum, but the others as well.

He is absolutely correct in stating that this is a business site.  It is Ken's business, it's Ken's livlihood and he is Ken's CUSTOMER.  And this sort of thing drives down the business Ken gets.  Word of mouth spreads.  A happy customer may bring in 5 more while an angry customer can scare off 10. 

For my part I want to see a happy Ken who is making buckets of money and wants to improve the product to make more buckets. 

If someone is being deliberately offensive, by all means stomp 'em until they're a greasy smear  But outside of that case, try and stick to the point of the post and deal with the ideas rather than the personalities involved.  It's better for Invelos and it's better for the community at large who has a vested interest in the product that it provides.

That's just my opinion though.

@Snark - Big Green One from me!

Quoting dav4is:

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I do aplolgize for the length of this message, but Astrakan raised a number of points.
Quoting Astrakan:

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Quoting dav4is:

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There has been d__ned little constructive criticism directed at me. Mostly what I hear is "shut up and go away", "we have heard it before", "how could you possible know", "we have the experience, you don't" ... and so on.

I don't have the time or patience to read through your entire posting history, but from a quick look it would seem Nadja himself gave you constructive criticism a mere three days after you registered and only received a snarky reply in response. Is it any wonder people get fed up with your attitude and demanding tone?

I looked back to the 13th and didn't really see anything from Nadja that I would call "constructive". Perhaps I missed it. Perhaps our perceptions differ.
If I missed it -- and that's very possible with all the traffic -- I apologize.
(Your pointer was to a message of mine.)

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I'm sure there are other examples, I know I myself started off on a friendly footing but it quickly became clear I was wasting my time.

I'm sorry to hear that.
I try to keep my postings businesslike and emotion-free. I don't feel the necessity of trying to curry favor with false sentiment. If folks are not adult enough to handle that, they should go play in their age group. People who need to hear "it would be nice if" or "I'm sorry if this has been said before" just need stroking that I'm loath to provide. I don't have time for all that.

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That said, instead of spending an entire post harping at you, since you seem to want them, here's a few pointers/constructive crticism:

- The search of this forum doesn't always work well. A workaround most of us use instead is to do a Google search with the prefix site:invelos.com. It's a good idea for you to use that when thinking of a feature request to ensure you don't create duplicate threads.

re doesn't always work well: Too right. I find that it times out 9 times out of ten.
I do try to avoid creating duplicate threads, but I can't go on searching forever. And, although you guys seem to think it a deadly sin, I don't see a duplicate thread as being that. If someone were to point out in the new thread that a previous thread exists, that would encourage a redoubled effort to find it.
It's always easier to search if you KNOW that the target really exists.
It's easy to criticize me (or anyone) for not finding the previous thread, but you forget that they (we) didn't KNOW that a duplicate exists.

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- When making feature requests it would do you well to temper your tone a little. Part of the reason you're catching so much flack is your wording. I'm thinking of your tendency to say "need to" or "should" or "must have" as opposed to "it would be nice if" or "I'd prefer." Both Nadja and Skip have elaborated more on this in this very thread.

I'm not here to stroke their egos.
Too bad if they can't handle that.
I'm not being rude, but I am trying to be accurate and businesslike. Accurate and precise language is what's called for.
They should remember that this is not a social gathering but a business forum.

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- Ask about workarounds before creating new requests. I'm not saying the presence of a workaround invalidates a new request, but it shows effort and a willingness to learn the current ways of the program as opposed to someone who just wants it his way.

KM

You are talking about "fitting in", yes?
Fitting in is for joining the new country club. This is a business forum and fitting in is not required.
I know that there are folks out there who disagree with that sentiment, and perhaps see it as -- umm -- disgusting and arrogant? I'm here to try to improve a product. I suggest that they examine their own motives:  Why are they here?

The only reason I can think of to mention the status quo is to be able to say "here's a better way." Workarounds need not be mentioned because they are not solutions to the problem, and have no bearing whatever on any proposals -- unless they (perhaps) point the way to a solution.

re effort and willingness: You have no clue how much effort I have invested in using this program. If I hadn't expended considerable effort how could I have come up with all those suggestions in a few days?

Now there is someplace you do not want to even consider going, dav4is, trust me.

Another bad place to go, in my book the comment you made in your OP for this thread was very rude, not just as it related to Invelos but to other members of this Comminity. As I said my reaction was Who the wherever do you think you are? There is no defending what i see as your actions thus far, and i will predict that it will not get any better going forward.

Skip

Quoting Snark:

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dav4is is a customer of Invelos.  Just like the rest of us.  He might not be warm and fuzzy, but he is certainly no more arrogant then many of the long term users that have been taking swipes at him.

Agree 100% with you Snark 

He had paid for the program like all of us and the fact that he use it for a week doesn't make him less important than some others. You don't like his idea good, you like them good, you think that he haven't test the software enough maybe. If you don't like his idea just don't comment them this is not complicated, we are not in kindergarden anymore to play the "I wan't to have the last word" game.

Sometimes the attitude of some of you discourage me

By the way welcome dav4is

Quoting Mark Harrison:

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Quoting Astrakan:

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Quoting dav4is:

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I don't think that I have the time to get involved in a Beta version, but I will take it under advisement.

Your misunderstanding his post. His mention of the Beta version was just to give an example as to what he's talking about. Just like I did in my post where I link to the Plugin tracking thread.

What we're both talking about is a thread tracking feature requests, and Mark suggested that you start a thread like that since you seem keen on the whole feature requests thing.

KM

You nailed it.  I wasn't suggesting installation of beta at all, just using that as an example.

I had already come to that conclusion myself, see above.

I am inclined to take on this task, but I need the weekend to think it through and to clear my desk -- at least of the more important stuff! 

EDIT: And, BTW, thank you Snark and AESP_Pres and others for your support.