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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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Picture-in-Picture Option in Features for DVDs |
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| Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting No_Name_Needed: Quote:
Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:
Quote:
We listed player subs and burned-in subs, but not closed captioning.
Yes we do in the special features section (even if this had nothing to do there) But we don't list them as subs. That's my point. I would also argue that in a literal sense, fake picture-in-picture is not picture-in-picture. Picture in picture means separate elements being combined on the fly. If you bought a TV that advertised picture-in-picture and it turned out you couldn't watch two channels at once, but you could watch the Glory DVD commentary, would you say that TV was advertised fairly? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting KinoNiki:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I have to agree with TheMovieman. PiP is not content based, it is simply a picture within a picture.
The common definition of PiP is the mixing of two separate content streams (using a secondary video and audio decoder) into one. DVD is not capable of such a thing so labeling it PiP would at least constitute a non-standard use of the term. Not sure what the gain would be, except for causing confusion.
Perhaps, but that isn't what you said, nor is it what I addressed. You said, "If I see a PiP feature I expect more than a commentary. A video commentary is still just a commentary." That, to me, meant it was content based and that was the point I was addressing.
I'll try to put it in simpler terms next time, just for you. Actually, I think the terms you used were too simple. Had you started out with the above post, I would have understood what you meant and, because I don't use PiP, kept my mouth shut. As it was, I thought you were against it only because you considered it 'just a commentary'.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
I am not sure that I understand the argument...
As far as I am concerned, a standard DVD player and DVD format does not support PIP in any sense of the word. Whether or not, there is a video commentary stream on the DVD, is irrelevant to the discussion of PIP. If the format will not support it, I am not sure how we can list it as a feature on a disc. For the DVD side, it should be listed as other features-video commentary
As far as the HD side of things, if it is true PIP, I am sure that, in most cases, it would be listed. If the FAKE PIP can be viewed on a version 1 BD player, that does not support PIP, then how can it be flagged as PIP. That would be like calling Closed Captioning a subtitle (which, because of TECHNICAL ASPECTs, it is not.
PIP is a specific type of feature, that is not supported by all players, nor is it supported by all discs.
Therefore, it should only be PIP, if it is truly a real PIP.
Charlie How is PiP not supported by all discs? It either has PiP or it doesn't. I don't get that part of it either. Hangover Blu-ray has PiP. There's no it might have it or might not. Ditto for the Without a Paddle DVD. Quote:
If the FAKE PIP can be viewed on a version 1 BD player, that does not support PIP, then how can it be flagged as PIP. Because it is a picture within... ah hell with it. I don't know why I start these things. As I said before, I doubt anything will come of it anyway so I'm done with participating in the forums and just stick with the contributions. It's not worth the hassle anymore since we just go round and round with these. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | They are getting hung up by this definition of PiP. Quote:
Picture in Picture (PiP) is a feature of some television receivers and similar devices. One program (channel) is displayed on the full TV screen at the same time as one or more other programs are displayed in inset windows. Sound is usually from the main program only.
Picture in Picture requires two independent tuners or signal sources to supply the large and the small picture. Two-tuner PiP TVs have a second tuner built in, but a single-tuner PiP TV requires an external signal source, which may be an external tuner, VCR, DVD player, or a cable box with composite video outputs. Picture in Picture is often used to watch one program while waiting for another to start, or advertisements to finish. Because the picture, that is in the other picture, isn't from an independent tuner or signal source, they don't believe it should be called PiP. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | So this just boils down to terms and definitions as I don't look at PiP on DVDs and Blu-rays the same as I do for televisions. But in terms of the rules, it does allow it for DVDs. But whatever, I'll figure something else out locally. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Too bad to see that your valid idea will need a local solution again because of 1/1000% of the users... It looks like DVDP is use by mostly lawyers liking to debate on words in place of practical way and when something is added it makes no practical senses.
Back in my local where everything make sense to me... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
So this just boils down to terms and definitions as I don't look at PiP on DVDs and Blu-rays the same as I do for televisions. But in terms of the rules, it does allow it for DVDs. But whatever, I'll figure something else out locally. Yea, unfortunately, that seems to be what it is boiling down to. I don't understand why it always seems to go this way as I am willing to bet your average user looks at PiP the same way you do...a picture inside a picture. Edit: I just asked my wife what PiP was and that is exactly what she said...not a word about the mixing of two separate content streams into one.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ok, from what I have gathered.
Bonusview (PiP on Blu-Ray) was introduced in Blu-Ray profile 1.1. The specification, which was considered mandatory (profile 2.0 was optional and added internet connectivity) after Nov 1, 2007
Profile 1.1 made mandatory a second set of Audio and Video codecs to decode the secondary audio/video stream(s) and play them on top of the main video stream.
So, according to the Specification for BR, PiP was not available till Profile 1.1. The articles that I read said
"If you have an older Blu-ray player that doesn't support Profile 1.1, you can still play back any newer movies that include PiP features -- you simply won't be able to access those features on your player."
This whole discussion comes down to definitions, and what profilers are willing to accept.
Does a separate video commentary on DVD constitute PiP? Technically, no. To the laymen it may very well may look like PIP.
Again, I will compare this to Closed Captioning, which requires specific hardware/software to to implement. SDH subtitles look a lot like Closed Captioning. Are they closed captioning? Some people may say yes, because of the way they look, but technically they are not. As profilers, we do not check the Closed Captioning feature for SDH Titles, unless CC is actually included.
I misspoke earlier Concerning BR Disc's. All BR Discs manufactured today have the capability to have PiP. Not all BR discs have it.
The DVD Specification does not have PiP. Therefore for DVD PiP should never be marked
HDDVD, I understand had PiP capabilities from the beginning, and BR has had it since profile 1.1 therefore if HDDVD/BR have the secondary track(s) that are designed to be decoded by the second set of decoders for PiP, then it should be flagged.
If it is just a separate audio/video track that is hard encoded with the small image, that is designed to play with a single encoder, then I do not feel this qualifies for PiP
My Opinion | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting TheMovieman:
Quote:
So this just boils down to terms and definitions as I don't look at PiP on DVDs and Blu-rays the same as I do for televisions. But in terms of the rules, it does allow it for DVDs. But whatever, I'll figure something else out locally.
Yea, unfortunately, that seems to be what it is boiling down to. I don't understand why it always seems to go this way as I am willing to bet your average user looks at PiP the same way you do...a picture inside a picture.
Edit: I just asked my wife what PiP was and that is exactly what she said...not a word about the mixing of two separate content streams into one. Oh well. Charlie, thanks for your lengthy reply but sorry, we're just going to go round and round on this one... |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unless I'm mistaken, only HD formats (HD DVD and Blu-ray) have the technical capacity to display a true PiP, which is a dual video stream:
stream 1 = main movie
stream 2 = smaller video frame with video commentary
DVD doesn't have this possibility but some discs have a video stream with both streams merged into one:
stream 1 = a single stream where the movie & video commentary are merged
At first glance, this may seem like exactly the same thing but the big difference is that with a true PiP, you can turn the commentary on/off on the fly, just like you would with subtitles (which also play over a video stream and are not merged into it). With DVD, you can't do this.
I think a good analogy is to compare true PiP to a subtitle stream whereas the DVD counterpart can be compared to burnt-in subtitles.
Therefor, I would suggest the following:
- Keep PiP exclusively to HD formats (as there is a technical difference, as well as in usability)
- Add a new Feature, limited to DVD, to identify DVD's that have this 'fake' PiP. Perhaps call it something like 'video commentary' or something along those lines.
That will still allow everyone to track those DVD features without throwing two different technical things into the same basket. Just a thought I had ... | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Therefor, I would suggest the following:
- Keep PiP exclusively to HD formats (as there is a technical difference, as well as in usability)
- Add a new Feature, limited to DVD, to identify DVD's that have this 'fake' PiP. Perhaps call it something like 'video commentary' or something along those lines.
That will still allow everyone to track those DVD features without throwing two different technical things into the same basket. Just a thought I had ... Except some early Blu-rays (pre 1.1) also have fake PiP. It doesn't seem right to include it on DVDs but not on Blu-rays. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Except some early Blu-rays (pre 1.1) also have fake PiP. It doesn't seem right to include it on DVDs but not on Blu-rays. I've never heard of that, but it's an idea I can support. Although I think it would be simpler to simply extend the commentary description to include video commentaries. |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | BTW guys, I've just given up on this... I do wish Ken would provide some sort of option even if it means keeping it local but I know that'll be a long shot so thanks for the replies. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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