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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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Are you satisfied? Cast/Crew linking: Your opinion and ideas |
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Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 868 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote: I don't think we will get any meaningful linking, unless we get away from a thinking about it in names.
We need to think of it more in How we associate. We really don't care if this is the same name as these other 10 variants. The only thing we care about is "Are these 2 people the same".
This is a 1 to 1, not 1 to many relationship
I am not a very good diagramer, but here goes (very simplified)
KEY1 J. Doe -- John Doe -- J. R. Doe -- John R Doe -- John Robert Doe
KEY2 J. Doe -- John Doe -- J. R. Doe -- John R Doe -- John Randall Doe
Here we have 2 distinct people, represented by Key1 and Key2. The names below them are WYSIWYT. What name you enter is irrelevant. No need for BY, or correct names, or common names, the only thing that matters is the relationship between he name you entered and the key to associate it with. In this scenario, common name would automatically be determined by the relationship of the number of entries to the key.
When you enter a name into a profile you are auditing, the system would use a soundex or some other filtering subroutine to determine possibilities, and present them into a list. So if you type in:
John Doe as Role 1
A list would pop up and give you an option of like
1 J. Doe -- John Doe -- J. R. Doe -- John R Doe -- John Robert Doe 2 J. Doe -- John Doe -- J. R. Doe -- John R Doe -- John Randall Doe
Of course the more info you have, the closer the list becomes. So typing in John R. Doe, would of course limit the list. At this point, you would be able to click on a select the appropriate one. If you did not know the right one, you would be able to look at the credits associated with each one, and then make your selection. the entry in the DB would be John Doe (key?). Now you have an association.
It would require work, but when fully implemented, cast and crew would be linked properly. It would not care if you accented or not.
Now, I do not know how to implement this. I can picture the structure, but not knowing how kens DB is designed, it may very well be a massive overhaul.
well MHO
Charlie Completely agree with this, of course this would only work if the actors DB wasn't local only. If i don't have a movie with John Doe i would still have to be offered the possible John Doe's. Also, i'd like to say again, just as Staid S Barr said, i'd really prefer if there was a movieDB where everybody owning a movie, not a DVD could vote on. Regional/version differences can than be applied where needed and voted on. First movie based, if than it turns out that more people have the original credit it is than dclined, and you could submit for your UPC only. Paul |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
Completely agree with this, of course this would only work if the actors DB wasn't local only. If i don't have a movie with John Doe i would still have to be offered the possible John Doe's.
Also, i'd like to say again, just as Staid S Barr said, i'd really prefer if there was a movieDB where everybody owning a movie, not a DVD could vote on. Regional/version differences can than be applied where needed and voted on. First movie based, if than it turns out that more people have the original credit it is than dclined, and you could submit for your UPC only.
Paul Once started, only partially. The master key would have to be centrally processed. But once you had the proper information, then you could work locally, until you came across a name that was not in your local. Then it could search online for the proper connection. There is a downside to this system. The management of it would become large. Just think if you were to add a new name for a new key. Who and how would this be handled. Then the other issue, Heaven for bid if an association was wrong, and you tried to submit a correction. The way our voting system works, I don't think it could be managed. Charlie |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote: Quoting paulb_99:
Quote:
Completely agree with this, of course this would only work if the actors DB wasn't local only. If i don't have a movie with John Doe i would still have to be offered the possible John Doe's.
Also, i'd like to say again, just as Staid S Barr said, i'd really prefer if there was a movieDB where everybody owning a movie, not a DVD could vote on. Regional/version differences can than be applied where needed and voted on. First movie based, if than it turns out that more people have the original credit it is than dclined, and you could submit for your UPC only.
Paul
Once started, only partially. The master key would have to be centrally processed. But once you had the proper information, then you could work locally, until you came across a name that was not in your local. Then it could search online for the proper connection.
There is a downside to this system. The management of it would become large. Just think if you were to add a new name for a new key. Who and how would this be handled. Then the other issue, Heaven for bid if an association was wrong, and you tried to submit a correction. The way our voting system works, I don't think it could be managed.
Charlie Exactly right, Charlie. This is why, while I like the Id concept, the simple association system seems to be an easier answer. I t does make the whole linking system much more of a local issue than it is currently. We would want to work out a sharing system, but I see it as far more flexible than what we have now. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote: Quoting CharlieM:
Quote: Quoting paulb_99:
Quote:
Completely agree with this, of course this would only work if the actors DB wasn't local only. If i don't have a movie with John Doe i would still have to be offered the possible John Doe's.
Also, i'd like to say again, just as Staid S Barr said, i'd really prefer if there was a movieDB where everybody owning a movie, not a DVD could vote on. Regional/version differences can than be applied where needed and voted on. First movie based, if than it turns out that more people have the original credit it is than dclined, and you could submit for your UPC only.
Paul
Once started, only partially. The master key would have to be centrally processed. But once you had the proper information, then you could work locally, until you came across a name that was not in your local. Then it could search online for the proper connection.
There is a downside to this system. The management of it would become large. Just think if you were to add a new name for a new key. Who and how would this be handled. Then the other issue, Heaven for bid if an association was wrong, and you tried to submit a correction. The way our voting system works, I don't think it could be managed.
Charlie Exactly right, Charlie. This is why, while I like the Id concept, the simple association system seems to be an easier answer. I t does make the whole linking system much more of a local issue than it is currently. We would want to work out a sharing system, but I see it as far more flexible than what we have now. But you would have to admit, if we could figure out the management side of it, it would be perfect... |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Oh I agree, but that may also be more up to Ken. I do KNOW for certain that we should have NOTHING to do with assigning an ID # to an Actor or Crew, it should be done by the system. I can visualize some pretty strange arguments if we, the users, had anything to do with assigning an ID #. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | But our whole problem (mentally) comes down to, everybody is worried if
Actor x = Actor xx and xyz and pdg and etc.
Unfortuantely this is the wrong approach. All I want to know is Actor X the same as the person (that goes by xx,xyz,pdq, etc) If we could get a system to overcome that then it would be a start. |
| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 490 |
| Posted: | | | | I am currently discussing the "common name" thing. And I strongly dislike the usage and the problems coming with it.
The CLT is just a way to *gradually* change names into the "most commonly used", but it's a too long perspective to be of any use. Also, it's a never ending process. Actors change names constantly, for various reasons.
I only see one way of handling this: The ability to LINK all various names belonging to one and the same person into one. So if you search for the name or use the name, you actually use all of them.
Then, the most commonly used name can be seen as the correct one and the one you use in the credits, while you also use the "credited as" to see the variants.
As it is now, it's just not acceptable. Too many persons and companies have multiple entries and instances in the DB and to me that is just a total mess that we urgently need to fix.
If we put our energy into that, we will save the energy spent on using the CLT over and over and to endlessly debate on which name is the correct one, etc. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote: As it is now, it's just not acceptable. Too many persons and companies have multiple entries and instances in the DB and to me that is just a total mess that we urgently need to fix. Not acceptable to you, perhaps, but I like my studio names to be the name used at the time the film was made. If we are given the ability to link them all, I am fine with that, but I am not fine with having all the names the same. Quote: If we put our energy into that, we will save the energy spent on using the CLT over and over and to endlessly debate on which name is the correct one, etc. Here's the thing, we can't put our energy into that. The only person who can is Ken. We can ask for it, which has been done on more than one occasion, but that's about it. Until Ken revamps the system, we have what we have. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | You know that i agree with you 100% Martian. Mika seems to be describing simple association. But each title is unique unto itself in terms of its data. That is the point from which we start creating a linking system. We do not create a link system which results in fictional cast/Crew and company data. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 490 |
| Posted: | | | | @TheMadMartian: Well I wasn't (again) talking about making the system so it fits just one person's desires.
If you link everything, you can enter studio names and actor names the way they are listed in the movie credits. And THAT is what I have always been talking about, if you had payed attention. Because right now I am totally unsatisfied with the "common name" usage. It's more like a dictatorship.
People are allowed to alter the DB, just because they input "common names", which don't correspond to the ORIGINAL credits list in the actual movie.
However there is some need for a common name, just so you can refer to the person or company in a unanimously decided way. And then you can use the "credited as" feature. But this will be quite secondary. If we have the linking ability.
Also, the benefit from common names, etc, is to spot erroneous entries. Such as when people have misspelled a name. And to prevent that any and all entries are accepted, if they aren't really correct.
Well I still suppose that in *some* way we could contribute. It can't just rely on one person. At least not if that person is unwilling to change things. Which I would doubt, if the desire for change is strong enough.
Personally, I don't see any other solution to this problem, than the ability to link things. Also, it would be a bit of pioneering, perhaps, to have that powerful feature.
To take iMDB as an example, you can search for things there and find them, even if you don't enter exactly as it's typed in, because not only one entry is regarded as correct. Like a "common name".
The common name feature, as it's being used now, is so obsolete. Like the BY function, it should either be removed, or only used only when absolutely needed. Like to control for errors. But it should in no way dominate the DB. And it seems that you are of the same opinion. |
| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 490 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote: You know that i agree with you 100% Martian. Mika seems to be describing simple association. But each title is unique unto itself in terms of its data. That is the point from which we start creating a linking system. We do not create a link system which results in fictional cast/Crew and company data. How do you mean "simple association"? I have worked a bit with Microsoft Access databases, so I have a clue about how databases work and their structure. You still need to link the entries. One by one. But I don't know how THIS very database is built, etc. Also, one "title" can include several data entries which can be linked in between themselves. Or at least I would think so. Even if I, like I said, don't know how the main DB is built. Every type of data has its own "table" of data. There should be one for each type of data, I mean. Within those "tables" (it's called that in MS Access) you should then be able to link names together. Or am I totally wrong? Oh well. It feels that I'm rambling. I don't know how to do it, but I still believe it should be possible to link names within the database. And I mean the main database. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote: @TheMadMartian: Well I wasn't (again) talking about making the system so it fits just one person's desires. Every post you have made on this topic talks about what you want and what you are totaly unsatisfied with. Why wouldn't I believe that you were talking about one person's desires? Again, if Ken can impliment a way to do this, I am happy to work with it. If not, I can live with what we have. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 490 |
| Posted: | | | | You are a rude person to say that to me.
I think that I might be talking from my own heart and desires and that that is what triggered my need to discuss all this, but I DO feel that my wish is something that could be generally satisfying if it was made into reality.
If you don't want/need a change, fine. But I think DVDP is in serious need of this very change. Or I couldn't fully call it a database. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | First off Mika I 5hink you misunderstand the CLT and the Common Name sysytem. users cannot, i repeat cannot depart from the film's credit. That IS the standadr. Now if yiou go into a name, just pick one as if youi were entering it When you open the box for entering the Role , look at it carefully you will see that Actor's or crew name is called Credited AS. The CLT in theory tracks all that data and creates a list of Credits that lest us determine, in theory, the MOST COMMONLY CREDITED name. So if the most Commonly Credited name is Joe Bob Smith but in the movie you are working he is listed as Joe smith then in the Role box you would fill in his Role and Credited AS Joe Smith. This works fine in theory, but in reality it barely functions for a whole list of resons.
So the system setting a Priority Name (Most Commonly Credited) works like this Joe Bob Smith=Joe Smith AND Joe Bob the biggest failing is that for the system for function as designed, it is dependent on every user following the Rules and entering the data as they see it On screen, that is the single largest failing.
Simple Association sets no priority name Joe Bob Smith=Joe Smith=Joe Bob ANY of the three names you search on will yield exactly the same list of films because ther is no priority. There are several ways tto do this, but the bottom line for linking to function, we have to take the user input out of the loop.
I hope that helps you. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: September 29, 2008 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,550 |
| Posted: | | | | I would like 1 cast CLT and 1 crew CLT. So that way, John Doe crew CLT doesn't get mixed up with John Doe actor CLT. Plus, I would like the CLT to include the birth year field, expanded to month and day when necessary (the 2 Ian Roberts' born 1965 come to mind). Don't know how this would be done, but that would be what I desire.
Eric | | | My one wish for the DVD Profiler online database: Ban or remove the disc-level profiles of TV season sets. It completely screws up/inflates the CLT. FACT: Imdb is WRONG 70% of the time! Misspelled cast, incomplete cast, wrong cast/crew roles. So for those who want DVD Profiler to be "as perfect as Imdb", good luck with that. Stop adding UNIT crew! They're invalid credits. Stop it! |
| Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 490 |
| Posted: | | | | @Prof. Kingsfield: OK. Thanks. I might have been derailing a bit. However, don't you see the backside of having a determined, common name? What if the "common" names are almost on par. That is, almost equally used. You'd have to change this "common name" over and over. In the whole database, for all titles. If you "simply" link the names together, which also makes the database more modern and advanced, you don't need to be a slave to the "common name". In the long run, and IMO, it will mean less work for everyone, instead of "keeping track" on the common name, which still isn't known to that many people that use DVDP. You have to think about all the people entering data to new titles, who may not know or care so much to find out what is correct. And hypothetically they would have to both check the credits in the movie, and check with the DB or the CLT to see if the name is "more common" with another spelling. That alone is too much to ask of anyone. Option two is that "we", whenever we find out (if we do), do the job and correct the initially submitted name into the "correct one", i.e. the common name. Even if people follow the rules and enter the data correctly, I still think it would save time and make the database more effective if we didn't rely so much on the common name. And even if you by me saying this think that I don't understand the concept. I think the common name usage is exclusive to DVDP. And not in a good way. I have Princess Zelda on my side when I say: Link! | | | Last edited: by MikaLove |
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